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forumrecon153
09-22-2009, 12:19 AM
so at 11:30 monday night as im just laying down to go to sleep i hear my alarm beap at first didnt think much about it but decided to look out the window anyway and there was some d-bag standing over my drivers door

luck was on my side this time and he didnt get in nor did he cause any damage but i think its time to upgrade to an aftermarket alarm with the lcd pager system and possibly go get the walther p99 that i have been wanting for awhile

Miracle max
09-22-2009, 01:02 AM
come out guns a blazin.

NachO_SRT
09-22-2009, 06:10 AM
Somethings can only be taught by a good pistol whipping. I call it 1950's rehabilitation.


NachO

VF34RX
09-22-2009, 07:58 AM
Dont forget the wall to wall theropy. But i have a handgun and a couple sharp swords along with an assortment of other weapons/collectables. :twisted:

NachO_SRT
09-22-2009, 11:41 AM
Dont forget the wall to wall theropy. But i have a handgun and a couple sharp swords along with an assortment of other weapons/collectables. :twisted:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/696357

:shock:


NachO

PenguinSti
09-22-2009, 04:28 PM
That is why I keep my Mossberg 590 around. 12 gauge with a bayonet on the end really speaks world to them. :twisted:

Hydrolix
09-22-2009, 05:23 PM
I know that this thread is probably mostly just chest thumping, but you all need to be careful about that kind of talk. In MO and KS it is NEVER ok to protect property with deadly force, only lives.

pnasmith
09-22-2009, 05:41 PM
I mentioned "Castle Doctrine" in another thread hoping you would chime in Hydrolix, does this change anything in MO since it's passing? Like most laws (especially those regarding firearms), their seems to be a lot of confusing/contradictory information out there. Can you set the record straight for those of us who are affected by this law (MO residents)?

http://www.ky3.com/news/local/60002072.html

"I have guns, but I'm not going to tell you how many, or where they are." Fred Thompson (from early in the debates) :wink:


Pete

WRXNFX
09-22-2009, 06:32 PM
I know that this thread is probably mostly just chest thumping, but you all need to be careful about that kind of talk. In MO and KS it is NEVER ok to protect property with deadly force, only lives.

Your the one "Pimpin' on the plaza.." :)

I have to say, my stuff is not worth taking another mans life.

Racking a shell into my Mossberg and him crapping his pants as he runs, funny.

Him returning to burn my car to the ground, or with a bigger gun, very not funny.

I say hit the porch light and yell for him not to come back, I bet that will get good results..

Funny story a gun in college had a parts car part at my fraternity (long story)

I walk by one night and a guy is laying on the hood through what should have been the hood.

I say hey, he rolls of the car, stand up, tosses me the cigarette lighter jogs just off the lot to a waiting car.

Pretty odd. :)

ScoobyDooKC
09-22-2009, 07:41 PM
Single biggest thing I think would be just to park her inside if you can. Does wonders for keeping a car looking clean too :D

Personally, I've always wanted to keep a Burmese python in my car, but I'm constantly reminded by my gf you can't do that... :mrgreen:

Gun? Practice with it (a lot), and be very careful about whom you pull it out to, friend or foe.

P99 isn't a bad choice, btw. Don't rush out and get one, just because this happened, though.

fullerswrx
09-22-2009, 10:17 PM
hey if you are going for security and arent looking at the dollar too much, lol, than i recommend checking this out. i think i will be getting one soon for security since i have none.
http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339

redwrxhead
09-22-2009, 10:41 PM
hey if you are going for security and arent looking at the dollar too much, lol, than i recommend checking this out. i think i will be getting one soon for security since i have none.
http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339

pretty nice system. pricing for the z502 would be nice tho :wink:

ElScooby
09-22-2009, 10:47 PM
Nothing beats my favorite alarm system of all time. The MagnaVolt from Robocop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyuKEK7wmsw

compro
09-22-2009, 11:40 PM
if i catch someone in the act of stealing or vandalizing my property they will most likely try to kill me, if they do anything other than run away, i am a witness who could put them behind bars,

if he is already wanted i could put him away for a long time.

anyone who catches someone stealing, should know this and act accordingly.

cops catch you speeding or forgetting to signal a lane change, blind you with lights sneak up your blind spot, hand on weapon and watch your every move as if they thought you would kill them at any moment,

if you caught someone doing something TRULY criminal wouldn't you want to act with the same caution,

he may have came to steal your radio but he could leave with your life.

so either dont confront them, and lose your property for ever. or if you do stop them make sure you are equipped, mentally prepared for the situation and trained in how to react in a quick and decisive manner.

in short, if someone is stealing from you or you witness them stealing they are a threat to your life.


end rant/

Just4fuN
09-23-2009, 01:30 AM
Nothing beats my favorite alarm system of all time. The MagnaVolt from Robocop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyuKEK7wmsw

Pretty sure your car would smell like burnt hair. :lol:

Crispy
09-23-2009, 08:54 AM
hey if you are going for security and arent looking at the dollar too much, lol, than i recommend checking this out. i think i will be getting one soon for security since i have none.
http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339

pretty nice system. pricing for the z502 would be nice tho :wink:

There's a few vendors on NASIOC that sell the 502 for under $350. subaruwrxparts (http://www.subaruwrxparts.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2428&idcategory=0) has it for $330.

No idea what it would cost to get an alarm with this level of features installed though. Then need to get a powered trunk release to work with the system.

VF34RX
09-23-2009, 09:03 AM
Wow i would really like that alarm.

paper_tiger
09-23-2009, 10:37 AM
I had someone try to break into my WRX. Lucky for me they were too stupid to realize the black trim over the windows is not part of the door but part of the roof *Yeah pillar-less windows!*. Banged the hell out of it and pissed me off but in all that is what Insurance is for.

03slobug
09-23-2009, 04:36 PM
Geez, I just caught 3 fools breaking into my neighbors car last sunday morning at 1:30am.......they got arrested after I sat there and waited for them to walk back to their parked car up the street, then called the waiting cops back. Dumbasses :lol:

scooby_rex
09-23-2009, 11:42 PM
Geez, I just caught 3 fools breaking into my neighbors car last sunday morning at 1:30am.......they got arrested after I sat there and waited for them to walk back to their parked car up the street, then called the waiting cops back. Dumbasses :lol:

dude, remind me to never park my car anywhere near you! you've seen much too much auto crimes :?

irishink
09-24-2009, 01:10 PM
About two weeks ago I came outside at about 5:15am to my drivers door wide open. My glove box was open but not a thing was missing. CD's, Spy sunglasses, change, and Scooby Tonka car (came w/ the wagon at purchase :twisted: ) were all still there. I was a little miffed about the whole episodes. The only thing I can figure out is I scared them off when I activated the remote start. I too feel it maybe time to upgrade security a little....maybe a .40 cal Glock :bom: .

Hydrolix
09-24-2009, 03:43 PM
Part of the reason that I don't chime in on every legal discussion is because of the liability I could face if someone acts upon my "advice" and does something they shouldn't. Every situation is different and unique in both facts and circumstances and because of such, a comment I make that would be the right thing in one situation may not be in another. With that said, I'll make the disclaimer that for the purposes of the following discussion I'm advising all who participate that nothing I say can be construed as legal advice and that no attorney/client relationship is formed.

Castling laws as they are called are a change to the common law when it comes to the use of deadly force. The common law always required that a person retreat from a dangerous situation if possible before the use of deadly force would be allowed. Castling laws create statutory provisions that remove that requirement in certain circumstances.

In MO, That requirement is removed if you are in your home or in your car. The latter as a preventative against car jacking which frequently results in the harm or death of the attackee. If you are at home (or car) and an intruder comes to get you, you no longer have to retreat from the situation and may kill them to protect yourself or your family. However, the requirement that you must be protecting life is still necessary.

An example of when deadly force would likely NOT be allowed would be if you come home and a guy is running out your back door with your Xbox. His hands are full and he is escaping so that person is not likely a threat to you. Neither would be a person messing with your car out in front of your house in the middle of the night.

Compro mentioned confronting a thief and the situation escalating. Let's take the example of coming home to a thief. This time, however, instead of catching him fleeing the scene you find the person in your living room unhooking your stuff. This situation is different because you have by your arrival likely just cornered the person in your home and escalation to a violent encounter is highly probable. Going back to the original topic here, if you go outside and confront someone in your driveway you are the party that just escalated the situation from a burglary (no parties present) to a robbery (being stolen from by force). If that situation results in the use of deadly force, you are going to have to be able to clearly articulate that the personal confrontation moving to deadly encounter was escalated by the other party and that you had no avenue of escape nor any alternative but deadly force to protect yourself...not your stuff. And the cops are going to want to know why you went out there instead of calling them...

Now if you legitimately thought that by going out you would simply scare them off and instead they turned and attacked you...

To legitimately use deadly force, you must have all of the following
1. a reasonable belief of a real and IMMEDIATE threat of death or serious physical injury to yourself or another person (immediate means right then...if someone says, I'm gonna go home, get my gun and kill you...that's not immediate)
2. No ability to retreat.
3. Cannot be the initial aggressor.
4. A reasonable belief that the use of deadly force is necessary to protect himself from the perceived serious injury or death.

Reasonable belief is what a reasonable person would have thought given the facts and circumstances.

Hydrolix
09-24-2009, 03:54 PM
One addendum. If you are already at home and someone tries to break in, you can assume they aren't after your property. A person breaking into an occupied dwelling isn't looking for loot, they are looking for victims.

myveryown07
09-24-2009, 04:12 PM
that was good info


so couple years ago when i hit a guy in the back of the head when he was running from me after breaking into my step dads yukon and fleeing after seeing me. i didn't have the right.......damn it...felt good though

pnasmith
09-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Hydrolix, in retrospect I TOTALLY understand the uncomfortable position I put you in, and I apologize. I didn't consider the legal ramifications of your commenting on such a volatile subject. I thank you for stepping out on a limb and clearing up a widely misunderstood change in the law.

Pete

Hydrolix
09-24-2009, 07:59 PM
that was good info


so couple years ago when i hit a guy in the back of the head when he was running from me after breaking into my step dads yukon and fleeing after seeing me. i didn't have the right.......damn it...felt good though


My post was specifically about the use of deadly force. Beating someone up isn't going to have the same sorts of ramifications...unless of course you do it so badly that they die or almost die.

WRXNFX
09-24-2009, 10:45 PM
that was good info


so couple years ago when i hit a guy in the back of the head when he was running from me after breaking into my step dads yukon and fleeing after seeing me. i didn't have the right.......damn it...felt good though


My post was specifically about the use of deadly force. Beating someone up isn't going to have the same sorts of ramifications...unless of course you do it so badly that they die or almost die.

Aaron thanks for your non legally binding advice.

Do you have an example of someone going to jail for killing someone on their property with out those things?

In other words, while you will have to defend your self in court, a dead man tells no tails. So whether the guy was charging, running, reaching in his pocket, kinda open isn't?

it seems to me, as sick as it sounds, the injured robbers seem to do best in court.

forumrecon153
09-25-2009, 12:04 AM
new alarm gets installed this sat im going with a viper or python system

i looked into the zunesis a few months back but i dont know of anyone that sells or installs them in the area and im not going to attempt that on my own plus other then the z-pass thing on the windshield they dont offer anything that is not available from DEI

so saturday alarm install at independence audio then sunday installing a grimmspeed uppipe

fullerswrx
09-25-2009, 12:55 AM
new alarm gets installed this sat im going with a viper or python system

i looked into the zunesis a few months back but i dont know of anyone that sells or installs them in the area and im not going to attempt that on my own plus other then the z-pass thing on the windshield they dont offer anything that is not available from DEI

so saturday alarm install at independence audio then sunday installing a grimmspeed uppipe

cool. repost after about a month and let me know what you think about your new alarm. cause it will probably be that long before i get one.

cubedweller
09-25-2009, 10:25 PM
Man...some posts in this thread have kind of bothered me. Chest thumping, indeed.

<soapbox>
There's nothing casual about shooting someone. In fact, there's nothing casual about even drawing your weapon. I hate to say it, but real life is not a movie. The act of brandishing your firearm (or even racking the action on it) is going to escalate ANY situation into one that usually winds up with someone being shot and/or killed. Property is not worth dying/killing over.

I have insurance, and I have guns. Each has its own place.
</soapbox>

WRXNFX
09-26-2009, 05:36 PM
Man...some posts in this thread have kind of bothered me. Chest thumping, indeed.

<soapbox>
There's nothing casual about shooting someone. In fact, there's nothing casual about even drawing your weapon. I hate to say it, but real life is not a movie. The act of brandishing your firearm (or even racking the action on it) is going to escalate ANY situation into one that usually winds up with someone being shot and/or killed. Property is not worth dying/killing over.

I have insurance, and I have guns. Each has its own place.
</soapbox>

Well put Brother!!

Hydrolix
09-26-2009, 07:33 PM
That's why I made the posts I did. Killing someone should always be a last resort and only to protect life. Besides it being the law, it's just plain common sense that killing to protect property is out of the question.

scooby2.5
09-27-2009, 05:21 PM
if i catch someone in the act of stealing or vandalizing my property they will most likely try to kill me, if they do anything other than run away, i am a witness who could put them behind bars,

if he is already wanted i could put him away for a long time.

anyone who catches someone stealing, should know this and act accordingly.

cops catch you speeding or forgetting to signal a lane change, blind you with lights sneak up your blind spot, hand on weapon and watch your every move as if they thought you would kill them at any moment,

if you caught someone doing something TRULY criminal wouldn't you want to act with the same caution,

he may have came to steal your radio but he could leave with your life.

so either dont confront them, and lose your property for ever. or if you do stop them make sure you are equipped, mentally prepared for the situation and trained in how to react in a quick and decisive manner.

in short, if someone is stealing from you or you witness them stealing they are a threat to your life.


end rant/

I agree with Compro. Most people who are performing CRIME, do not want to be caught doing it. PERIOD. They will do anything possible to get away. Including using Guns.
Would you people tell me :

HOW THE HECK YOU KNOW WHEN A PERSON IS ROBBING YOU THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO USE PHYSICAL FORCE????
I went to Isael on a business trip about 4 years ago, I live in a fairly new neighborhood in Independence.
I was supposed to be there for 3 weeks. The beginning of the second week of the Trip my wife call me crying early in the morning in Israel, the middle of the night in Indep.

Seems that someone had been watching the neighborhood looking for unlocked windows, and when found they would break into your home in the middle of the night while people were sleeping and steal whatever they could from the basement and leave.
So dont worry about this kind of theft, have insurance, not worth a life you say.... :evil:

Well my wife calls me in Israel, she was downstairs sewing, and had come upstairs to get on the computer in the kitchen when she heard a noise at the downstairs window. She grabbed the phone and peered out the window only to find a
GUN LAYING ON THE RAILING OF OUR OUTSIDE BACKYARD STEPS.

While on the phone with 911 she saw a hand grab the gun. She also called her dad who lives on the other side of Independence. THE COPS ONLY BEAT HER FATHER BY 2 MINUTES AND THE POLICE STATION IS AT TRUMAN AND NOLAND ROAD. I LIVE 3 MILES FROM TRUMAN AND NOLAND. HER DAD LIVES AT CHRYSLER AND 40 HIGHWAY BY BLUE RIDGE WALMART.

They found nothing but a hole being burned in the downstairs window screen and the window OPENED. They did nothing else and a few weeks later 2 other homes were broken into.

I flew home from Israel Immeadiately.

STEALING SOME PETTY THINGS FROM MY HOME IS NOT WORTH YOUR LIFE

I now own guns....

I follow THE CASTLE LAW...

YOU ENTER MY HOME UNLAWFULLY YOU DIE!!!! PERIOD. END OF STORY!

If you think I am chest thumping, enter at your own risk!

Insurance is set up so half the time they will not pay because theft many times falls under HOME OWNERS POLICY.

That way they can get away with not paying for what is in your car because the deductable on the house is higher.

If it is not fastened down as a part of your car it is HOME OWNERS.

scooby2.5
09-27-2009, 05:38 PM
One addendum. If you are already at home and someone tries to break in, you can assume they aren't after your property. A person breaking into an occupied dwelling isn't looking for loot, they are looking for victims.

Read my post as this post is IDIOTIC. Cant wait to tell my wife or the rest of the people in my neighborhood you said this :oops:

WRXNFX
09-27-2009, 07:37 PM
One addendum. If you are already at home and someone tries to break in, you can assume they aren't after your property. A person breaking into an occupied dwelling isn't looking for loot, they are looking for victims.

Read my post as this post is IDIOTIC. Cant wait to tell my wife or the rest of the people in my neighborhood you said this :oops:

I have to think you have miss-read this quote Greg.

Hydrolix is saying if they break in they are looking to hurt people. meaning the law supports defending you self in you home against and intruder.

IMHO.

scooby2.5
09-27-2009, 09:40 PM
I fully understood his post. My point in responding to the post jeff, was the fact that in our case in the neighborhood, the guy was breaking into houses in the night and stealing petty things from the basement and did not seem to have the intent to harm anyone.
He would break in while you were sleeping, steal whatever and leave. We were the FOURTH HOUSE IT HAPPENED TO.

So my point is he was carrying a gun to protect himself if he were caught. NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA WHAT A CRIMINAL WILL DO, THEY DO NOT ABIDE BY LAW THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CALLED CRIMINALS.

Not all people who break in at night while you are home are coming to do harm to the people inside (as was our case)
He was a petty thief stealing mostly junk out of peoples basements.

But he was prepared if he were caught, and that is my point. Most of these petty thievery kind of thugs dont have the intent to harm anyone, but they will if they face getting caught and going to jail.

From the posts people made they seem to think that just stealing some goods is no reason to shoot someone.

I can tell you the thieves would not hesitate to shoot you if they thought they were going to get caught.
The thieves better know there are risks involved in stealing from people.

Should we let them just rob banks, paper money that is printed by the federal reserve (a private corporation) is not any reason to kill anyone is it? :roll: Its only paper for gosh sakes :wink:

YOU CANNOT ASSUME ANYTHING. PERIOD

Did you hear about the women robbing the grocery store this week.

A manager ran after her, the lady thief ran the manager onto the hood of the car and took off driving, with the manager clinging to the hood of the car.

A man was driving into the parking lot, had conceal and carry and the get away car was blocking his way in. He saw the women on the hood of the car and warned the driver he would shoot and when she didnt stop he then shot the women driving. She had to pull over with a gunshot wound to her neck and the police busted her.

He saved the life of the women manager on the hood of the car.

No charges were filed for the conceal and carry permit holder.


I can see the posts now, she was hungry thats no reason to shoot her.

Maybe she was, i dont know, but I do know she was willing to run over the manager to avoid getting caught.

Hydrolix
09-28-2009, 05:09 PM
You need to learn how to argue or debate. If you have a differing opinion or facts to contradict something then say so. Calling a person names because you disagree serves only to make people angry and/or resentful and likely have them not listen to anything that you say after that. People who use that technique typically don't have anything worthwhile to say about a subject and feel threatened by their intellectual superior. You're better than that so don't do it.

My post was not idiotic as you claim. That is the base reasoning behind the castle laws being enacted. The logic there is that a person ONLY looking for stuff to steal would likely do it when no one is home. A person armed and breaking in while people are home, knowing people are home while maybe not planning on doing any confronting of their own volition is still a very dangerous person who is much more than just a thief. The probability of a confrontation is extremely high!

Second, your example of the CCW person saving the life of the store manager is a great example of the rules surrounding the use of deadly force. He saved a life...now if he had shot her with no manager on the hood it would be a completely different story as Cops aren't even allowed to shoot fleeing felons unless there is a reasonable likelihood that the fleeing person is going to go harm someone.

myveryown07
09-28-2009, 09:44 PM
Cops aren't even allowed to shoot fleeing felons unless there is a reasonable likelihood that the fleeing person is going to go harm someone.
always wonder why they never just shoot

ElScooby
09-28-2009, 11:14 PM
I just want to mention that I appreciate this discussion. I have learned some new things about the law that I didn't know regarding defense with a firearm etc.

scooby2.5
09-28-2009, 11:21 PM
I Didnt call you a name, I simply said the statement (post) was idiotic. I apologize if that seemed harsh.
Whether you said it or it was the basis for the law it still makes no sense to me. Criminals break into homes when THEY THINK they can GET AWAY with it. Key word in your statement is LIKELY. Again criminals do not follow law or rational thinking in many instances.

ALL thieves are much more than just thieves when they are about to get caught, just like the grocery store robber. She decided to use her car as a weapon to avoid getting caught.

When criminals are engaging in criminal activity they are VERY UNPREDICTABLE.

Oh and My wisdom for conversation, debate, or an argument would be, dont start your post out by saying "you need to learn" This is very condescending and shows how you think you are an intellectual superior. :roll:

I totally agree about the name calling, I would say you are 100% correct which is why I try not to do that.

VF34RX
09-29-2009, 08:50 AM
So in a hypothetical situation, say a guy is on your property breaking into your car. You go outside with a gun on your hip to hopefully scare him away before he causes any damage or steals something. You yell, he turns holding whatever and comes toward you. Its a short distance to your door but also a short distance to your car so you dont want to try and turn your back to get to the door and end up stabbed or beaten with whatever the guy has in his hands.
Do you
(a) Shoot in fear of your life
(b) Tell him you have a gun and will fire, then see what his response is before you draw and pull the trigger
(c) Run away hoping he wont follow and that you are faster also hope that he doesnt come into your know unlocked house.


Or should you have just not gone outside, call the cops and hope they get there fast enough.

(this is hypothetical and i would like some thought through answers) :bounce:

scooby_rex
09-29-2009, 09:58 AM
if in johnson county on the ks side, emergency vehicles are supposed to arrive within 2-5 min (according to a source not validated by myself), the average in the greater metro was like 12-17 min

to me it makes the most sense to call the police and not care if your car is stolen or something is taken when you could get harmed or worse

DevXTech
09-29-2009, 10:16 AM
Lots of good information in this thread. So does Kansas have anything similar to these Missouri Castle laws for deadly force? Mainly in regards to home defense and self defense.

Crispy
09-29-2009, 10:34 AM
Wikipedia Castle Doctrine article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine_in_the_United_States)
Gives this link for kansas...
http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatute.do?number=11701

21-3211
Chapter 21.--CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
PART I.--GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 32.--PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL LIABILITY
21-3211. Use of force in defense of a person; no duty to retreat. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force.
(b) A person is justified in the use of deadly force under circumstances described in subsection (a) if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.
(c) Nothing in this section shall require a person to retreat if such person is using force to protect such person or a third person.

Hydrolix
09-29-2009, 04:39 PM
So in a hypothetical situation, say a guy is on your property breaking into your car. You go outside with a gun on your hip to hopefully scare him away before he causes any damage or steals something. You yell, he turns holding whatever and comes toward you. Its a short distance to your door but also a short distance to your car so you don't want to try and turn your back to get to the door and end up stabbed or beaten with whatever the guy has in his hands.
Do you
(a) Shoot in fear of your life
(b) Tell him you have a gun and will fire, then see what his response is before you draw and pull the trigger
(c) Run away hoping he wont follow and that you are faster also hope that he doesnt come into your know unlocked house.


Or should you have just not gone outside, call the cops and hope they get there fast enough.

(this is hypothetical and i would like some thought through answers) :bounce:

This is a classic example of a "law school question." The answer is "it depends." Self-defense has traditionally been a common law doctrine. That means that past cases dictate the legal ramifications of actions vs. some statutory scheme that has been enacted. KS and MO have both enacted legislation that is meant to clarify and change these common law doctrines. They have done this by removing elements such as the duty to retreat, etc.

In your example there are a number of ways things could go and they vary by what state you might live in. You need to take into account the "reasonable person" standard that applies at all times for self-defense, and that the ultimate decision about whether you end up getting charged is up to the county prosecutor/district attorney.

The retreat element has always had a caveat. That you be able to retreat safely. If a person is a few feet away and lunging at you with an object fleeing safely is quite probably not a real option. On the flip-side there is quite a bit of argument to be made that you put yourself in that situation by going outside at all. Another total monkey wrench would then be that most cities around here have made open carry illegal and you may end up cited for having a pistol on your hip...